[Steve] I've been chatting to the GMs about some knotty points regarding the Juliani's perception of their dad and of their other relatives through him.
[Leslie] <snicker> Juliani. I love it. :)
[Mark] I've been known to use the adjective form, Julianic. :-)
[Steve] I can't claim to have invented the term, I think one of the GMs did that - practical, bearing in mind there seem to be more children of Julian than anyone else - I think Gerard's in the second rank with two; do you think it runs in the family? ;-)
[Mark] In any event, it appears dear Papa has beaten Corwin at *his* favorite game....
[Leslie] It's always the quiet ones... <grin>
[Steve] The Biter bit - if that's the right verb root. ;->
[Steve] For example, it seems to be canon that Julian and Corwin detest each other but, of course, we don't get to hear Julian's side of the story their relationship.
[Leslie] Hmmmm. Even Corwin admits that he was a rat bastard before his little incident with the memory and the shadow. I always thought that Julian's side was that Julian was a decent, loyal kind of prince. (Leslie takes a quick look at the 'Mothers' page) Like the other Rilgan, Gerard.
See, you got a unusuality in a Queen of Amber -- someone who works for the common good. Who bears two sons, both of whom are also devoted to the common good. Though I think that Julian just can't stomach being around his brawling, squalling siblings in Amber, so he does what he can from the outskirts.
[Steve] Who thought up the idea of having Corwin blinded? Daeon is aware that his father has a dark side but I don't know whether his siblings know. Julian is definitely very reserved [I'm not surprised Ginger cast an English actor for him] and I think we're all up to speed on that.
[Mark] "Hear me out. It was mine, and *it probably saved your life.*"
Dad, emphasis mine. True that he harbors no particular love for Corwin, although I'm confident the Morgenstern-baiting anecdote is exaggerated. There's Corwin's admitted rat-bastardy, certainly, but I think you have the right read on Julian, Leslie: He wanted no part of the perpetual jockeying for position - but rather than removing himself entirely like Benedict, he removed himself to where he could do the kingdom some tangible good without being disturbed (and by carving out a safe niche for himself, shunted the focus off himself as a threat in the Great Game).
[Steve] I agree, his reply to Corwin's "Your words are ill-considered" IMO reveal an underlying distaste for the perpetual lies within the family. His reply to Benedict's question about wanting the throne, "Perhaps next year this time... Not today, thank you." might also be indicative of a lack of desire for the throne, despite even Corwin thinking he might make a 'very effective monarch'. I think we are in agreement, here. :-)
[Leslie] Oh, I really loved the 'Hear me out' speech of Julian's. It revealed that Julian too could be extremely Machiavellian, that he *did* understand the game and the players around him, and that he *could* make a truly inspired move in the Great Game. But that he would only do so for the good of Amber. Not just for the good of the conspiracy he had found himself part of.
[Steve] Julian doesn't turn up a lot but when he does he is fascinating. One thing we haven't touched on is a possible streak of paranoia revealed in his parting jibe about talking behind his back, augmented by his promptly legging it (more on this below.) He seems to deliberately provoke Corwin after the stabbing, I think there must be some needle there still at that time.
[Mark] I didn't read that as paranoia at all. IMHO, he doesn't know whether to be disgusted or amused by all the speculation and nervous finger-pointing, so he opts for cutting humor.
[Steve] Which he's certainly good at - but put together with his later reference to previous false accusations, I feel it is genuine.
[Steve] But IMO the crucial thing is that he's the first to kneel to Random as King, beating even Benedict.
[Mark] I'm still inclined to say there's a deeper reverence for the Unicorn at work there (which need not translate to *religion* as such - spirituality is rather a different thing).
[Steve] I'm inclined to agree but the only thing I have on it is Julian's one sentence 'I doubt the Unicorn means the same thing to you that she does to me'. Unfortunately, as per usual, an invitation to elucidate was a little evasive. "What She means ... is complex. But the sort of divinity practiced in Arcadia is not my native idiom." :-)
Alas, I cannot find the rest of the conversation in my archives. :-(
[Leslie] Hmmmm. Robin does have a spiritual but waaaay not-religious side... that could have been a legacy from her Pater. What about Jovian and Daeon?
[Steve] Well I think that's best answered by reading through Daeon's visions, questions and quiz, all of which are on the website, along with his diary, under 'miscellaneous'. :-)
Daeon regards himself as a god, first and foremost, and hence is well into
religion. But IMO too many people so far have seen the word 'religion' and immediately connected with Christianity, Islam, etc, etc. A god may not agree with his professed church, imagine the RL Christ's view of modern Christian religion, for example.
More importantly, Daeon's own cult isn't exactly like what we know as formal organized religion; it's a lot more ad hoc and when it says 'love thy neighbor', it means 'take off your clothes and get into bed with her'. ;-)
[Mark] Jovian's home shadow is a society of rationalists - no religion, no mysticism, a fairly quiet and unassuming spirituality, if any. During some of his quiet time (ha, and ha) he's still parsing the significance of having been in the Unicorn's presence. He understands intellectually what Daeon's trying to do with the whole godding thing, but he doesn't *get* it. Which is why it totally fails to impress him, I suppose.
[Leslie] Hmmmm. Sounds like the Juliani are all over the board on this one. Guess religion and spirituality was a personal choice for Julian's kids. :)
[Steve] For their players, perhaps. :-)
Actually, I don't think we're as far apart as it appears at first glance. I'm reasonably sure that Daeon isn't as far from his father as all that and Robin seems closest to Julian in this regard. Jovian may come from a rationalist background but I get the feeling even he's beginning to think in spiritual terms with regard to the Unicorn - though I doubt he'll ever see things from Daeon's PoV.
[Leslie] (Re: Julian & Corwin) So how do you think someone who puts the good of Amber before himself is going to get along with the 'me, me, me -- mine, mine mine' mentality of the pre-change Corwin? Especially if Corwin is older, more powerful, and trickier *and* as the GMs hint at below, he was sabotaging Julian's attempts to do his duty in Arden.
[Mark] And besides, he already took the cool colors. <pout> ;-)
[Leslie] Noooo, kidding! <laugh>
[Steve] OK, so you and I are agreed on Julian's probable relationship with Corwin. Daeon was around before Corwin vanished and so may have heard his father speak of the 'Old Corwin'. Corwin then vanishes and, for whatever reasons, Julian does go looking for him. Eventually Corwin is posted 'missing presumed dead' - I wonder whose idea the tomb was?
But then he comes back and IIRC we're all around to hear the new story, which I think would start off same as before but then possibly thaw a little. Corwin comes to an almost complete volte-face over Julian by the end of CoC, perhaps Julian does the same? Is this soon enough for us to know?
[Mark] Welllll.... Jovian has spent nearly all his time in Calusa, in which the GMs and I have discussed the possibility of notably slow time-flow. So maybe he's been around something like 100 Amber years. IIRC, the cenotaph has been there all Jovian's life. So the tales he's heard might not be quite as... hmmm... caustic as what Daeon got, time and distance having a mellowing effect and all.
[Steve] I think while Corwin was 'dead', Julian's expressed opinion might have softened. He did go looking for him, after all, and the reason doesn't have to be as cynical as Corwin and Benedict assumed. But his actions and words on Corwin's return are pretty hostile, obviously seeing Corwin again must have been a shock and finding him in Arden of all places perhaps intimated a threat to his position. Corwin's blinding also removed him as a competitor as Warden of Arden...
[Mark] OK, two things occur to me about that first encounter.
1) Corwin shows up out of nowhere just as Eric is preparing to consolidate power, and the redheads are whereabouts and intentions largely unknown. Corwin's pretty obviously got a bit of a hard-on for Bleys and he's fascinated as well as troubled by Brand. He *could* be in league with them. Good reason to be on high guard, maybe even take the offensive. Even assuming Corwin hasn't fallen in with that lot, and whether or not Julian really does prefer Eric over Corwin (a proposition I'm not strictly comfortable with), any disruption in Eric's consolidation is an opening for the redheads to take advantage of...
[Steve] Agreed.
[Mark] 2) On the other hand, I'm not quite buying into Corwin being able to take Julian down with as little struggle as we saw, not if Julian was really trying. Corwin's preferable over the redheads certainly, and I suspect Corwin vs. Eric is a tough choice. (I for one think Eric's "Julian, I spit on" attitude is sincere.) Julian *could* have taken a dive to give himself plausible deniability - he's prepared to support Eric, but at heart wouldn't mind Corwin replacing him, and this way he can say plausibly that he was really with either one all along.
[Steve] I'm not sure I'm happy with this. Corwin seems to have been a very nasty piece of work indeed before his sojourn on Earth and we can see how Random is. If Julian remembered the 'old' Corwin and also saw Random in the car, he'd have to be very trusting indeed to deliberately place himself at their mercy. Seeing how careful he is elsewhere, I can't see him going this route. I'm happy to put him a step behind Corwin in fire, even two, especially if Corwin's specialization could be brought into action [whatever that is].
Very especially if Corwin can also use his water and earth to hide his intent.
[Leslie] I was never very happy with how easily Corwin took Julian down either. But I kind of agree with Steve, I don't think that Julian would have intentionally taken a dive at that point in time.
We don't hear much of what Random was doing -- other than driving the car. Could he have been jinxing the odds in Corwin's favor somehow?
[Steve] Four years later, just after Brand's stabbing, Julian still seems to have something against Corwin but it's about two weeks later that the two have their conversation in Arden, where Julian admits to Corwin's blinding.
I can see why Leslie loves that speech, there's a lot going on in it. Julian opens by emphasizing Corwin's killing of his falcon, mentioning her by name, and Corwin immediately apologizes in a most un-Amberlike way - unreservedly, "I'm sorry!"
[Mark] That does telegraph something important happening, doesn't it?
[Steve] I wonder if it's possible that Julian's provocation of Corwin after Brand's stabbing and his careful pointing up the killing his falcon are deliberate tests of Corwin to see how he reacts. I'm not sure how he comes out in the sitting room but I think his apology scores well in Arden. Perhaps it's taken as apologizing for more than just killing one bird?
[Steve] Julian then explains why he ran, "It's not the first time I've been falsely accused, suspected." This can relate to nothing in canon, I think, so there's a history there. I wonder if it's something Corwin's aware of. If it's very old, it might be a veiled reference to an incident like the spike in Corwin's boot.
[Mark] That was Random's boot, wasn't it?
[Leslie] Naaaw. It's was Corwin's boot. Random later 'fessed up to putting the spike in it.
[Steve] Not according to Vialle in conversation with Corwin. Random spiked Corwin's boot and Corwin admits to blaming Julian - all seems frightfully petty, doesn't it?
[Steve] "I had always blamed Julian for that one." and Julian within a few pages calls Corwin a fool to his face and promptly admits to having him blinded, Eric "simply wanted to imprison you and forget you."
[Mark] I'm sure there was talk of having Corwin off. I don't have my books handy, damn...Caine maybe? I don't think Eric would have been hugely difficult to convince.
[
Steve] 'having off' = killing, right?
According to Julian, the redheads apparently thought Corwin would die after the "half-assed attack"; "They left us small choice in the matter. By rights, we should have killed you - and you know it."
But he goes on to say they feared retribution should Oberon return, reveals Eric himself was against killing Corwin [cf the quote above] and implies the redheads would have killed him by trump if Julian hadn't thought up the blinding stratagem. [I find this idea of 'killing by trump' tricky to justify as the redheads don't try it with anyone else save Martin and he fails to die.]
It reads as if they got together and said, 'well they expect us to kill him but we don't want to so what can we do instead?'
[Steve] Then there's his comments about Fiona, in which he alludes to Corwin's feelings for Deirdre. I'm sure you can spot other things yourselves, but the important thing in all this for our current purposes is that Julian suddenly comes over as sympathetic, whereas until then he's brazenly antagonistic. Does this mean he's changed his opinion in the last few days? Or is his opinion changed before and this is just his first voicing of it?
[Mark] I see the antagonism as a defense mechanism, one that he uses freely. He could have been in the process of coming around for a while...but not willing to give Corwin or anyone else the opening until he was absolutely confident or it was absolutely necessary.
[Steve] Agreed - see also the 'test' hypothesis above, the two are compatible, I think.
[Leslie] Yeah. I really see that. Julian always did strike me as just a bit... curt, and a little bitchy. And 'antagonism as a freely-used defense mechanism' sounds like a fine definition of bitchy to me. :) I think his comment as he leaves the apres-Brand-stabbing meeting struck me as not so much paranoia, but... cattiness.
[Steve] I've already responded to this on another post where I give my reasons for staying with the paranoia idea.
[Leslie] So that he may have been softening toward Corwin earlier, but staying guarded. And now that -poof!- Corwin is de facto Regent, and there's obviously *real* trouble on the horizon, not just the standard family in-squabbling, so Julian puts away the claws for a bit.
[Steve] It feels more fundamental to me. "The Corwin I hated must have died centuries ago..." spoken just days and with no interaction after "Now you can all talk about me". The more I think about this, the more certain I am that some seminal event has happened to Julian offstage in between that we never get to hear of.
[Steve] (Re: Julian's thaw towards Corwin - recent or long build up) If the former, I've a feeling it's a little too close in time to the events of CoC for him to really tell his kids. If the latter, then things are different. Of course, we must also assume his kids may be influencing his conversation with Corwin: one of his two daughters is missing, one of his sons seems to be deaf to his warnings regarding the Black Road and he may already be wondering if he can get Jovian's dragons into action.
[Mark] There's an interesting perspective. Take it that way, and Julian is severely overstressed, far more than he lets on to anyone and for reasons he absolutely can't disclose. The partial opening up to Corwin, in whom he has seen Oberon place his trust, can be taken as a sign of this - the need to put at least some old tensions to rest...
[Steve] There is stress, certainly, though I think Julian can handle stress. My point was more that he has family matters on his mind and something seminal has changed here. Julian is most uncharacteristically loquacious, and to his arch rival, too. Whatever it is, it's deep.
[Mark] I wouldn't dare put words in Dad's mouth about his current opinion of the man, but the conversation that included the quote above did indicate a thaw. Maybe that's grudging respect for the guy who came out on top, but I think there may be more... particularly in light of Oberon's new-found trust in Corwin(!) for strength and maturity.
[Steve] I can't find any other cause for it. In fact, I wonder if Ganelon had not already revealed himself to Julian as Oberon. Ganelon does claim to have spent much of the week Corwin is in Chaos looking after the troops in Arden, and by his own admission has acquired a trump deck. If our opinions of Julian are echoed by Oberon's he may have decided to confide in him before anyone else. It's notable that Benedict also seems to trust Julian before his other brothers.
[Mark] Hmm. I like this idea. Ginger? Michael?
[Steve] If we want use the 'Oberon has placed his trust in Corwin' idea, then we have to assume he has contacted Julian privately as he doesn't reveal himself in canon until the end of Hand of Oberon, whereas this meeting occurs nearer the middle of the book, p 181 versus pp 112/120, respectively.
But we need something; Julian finishes "I think the Corwin I hated must have died centuries ago." But IMO we don't see much in canon for this change of opinion as this is their first interaction since Julian flees the library.
[Leslie] Now, Robin was not around for most of the thaw if there was one. She left Arden shortly after the Battle of Kolvir. I think that all that's been established in her game canon (one n <laughing>) is that Julian owed Corwin big-time for not killing him when Corwin first returned. And that the payback for that had been substantial, but not Corwin's fault.
Robin might have noticed... maybe not so much a thaw, as a thoughtfulness from Julian concerning Corwin.
[Steve] What is Julian's favorite 'game'? Is Daeon aware of what it takes to crack his father's 'legendary self-control'?
[GM] Based on other game history, Julian became warden of Arden before Corwin's disappearance from Amber. Corwin had apparently preceded him in this office, and Julian probably did not assume complete control over Arden and the Rangers until after Corwin vanished.
My thinking is: Julian has a strong loyalty for his family overall and had no particular dislike for Corwin until taking over from him as Warden of Arden. At this time, Julian may have been trying to establish himself and walking into Corwin's 'ghost' all over Arden. From hints in canon, I get the feeling that Corwin did not do as much as he could have to help, perhaps he had been ordered to yield Arden to Julian and was unhappy about it.
By this thinking, Julian's 'favorite game' may have been something to do with hunting and Corwin deliberately rubbed his nose in it to show he still couldn't compete with his older brother. Is this a suitable alternative to chess or scrabble? What do you all think?
[Leslie] I always pictured something more... civilized. As it was followed by a glass of wine to the face, rather than bota bag of honey-mead to the head. Go has some classic strategies that might appeal to Julian, but I'm not sure how portable it would be. But I don't have any strong preference. Whatever you guys want to go with is fine.
[Steve] I saw the glass of wine incident occurring later, perhaps in the apres-hunt drinks, when Corwin rubbed Julian's face in it in front of family. [Interesting that his self-control is referred to as 'legendary', when this is supposed to have happened quite early on.]
[Mark] Early? The time frame isn't clear; we know for certain only that it was before Corwin's disappearance, unless I'm forgetting something major. Anyway, I'm with Leslie on this one. A parlor game, or something similarly civilized. Rikibeth and I have a running gag about its being quoits, but that's partly because I like saying the word. Quoits quoits quoits..... :-D
[Leslie] <laughing> Gotta love you, silly man.
[Steve] Well we all have our little foibles. :-)
OK, some sort of indoor boardgame it is, then. :-)
[Mark] No. It wasn't cricket. :-Þ
[Steve] I'm not too bothered if it does turn out to be a boardgame or something but I do have just one caveat, which is that [to me] Julian comes over as the brighter of the two. Don't get me wrong, Corwin's pretty shrewd but he doesn't seem to be in the front rank of air elementals: he speaks of the educated members of the family as if they were a completely different species and seems in awe of Benedict, calling him 'broad of mind', which IMO Benedict is anything but. Corwin also remarks on Bleys' tactical ability while occasionally showing up as slow on the uptake in canon. I've a feeling air is his worst stat, though that may not be saying much.
That being said, I'd expect Julian to possibly have the edge on him in battles of air. Julian seems to be more of an ideas man than Corwin. Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree completely but that's why I think the game can't have been a purely intellectual strategy game.
A game requiring highish water, however, might well have placed Corwin with an advantage. Again, I don't reckon Julian is bad in the water department but it could be his worst element and, particularly if it is not 'bad' but rather just not as good as it could be, he may not have realized his deficiency until bested by someone who is really outstanding.
OTOH, Go might be the right sort of game for that. Does anyone know any others where intuition counts for as much as intellect? Aside from charades, of course. :-)
[Mark] You're overlooking fire. Julian has enough fire to maintain his province inviolate, but not enough to want a piece of the Great Game. Corwin has got to be nearly as well ranked in fire as in earth. So something where a sudden, bold, unexpected move could get the best of a careful analytical strategist is also possible.
[Steve] You're right! It could have been fire, Corwin demonstrates his superiority there pretty conclusively, but I still lean toward water because IMO their water differential is probably higher than their fire differential [though I 'spose that's a Q only our GMs can answer] and, from my experience of such games, it's a lot easier to get water into play than fire, which has a more physical side to it, hasn't it? [I must admit that I'm unsure of this due a basic unfamiliarity with the Everway system.]
[Mark] As I understand it, fire is an expression of *will* as much as physical skill - where water is sensitivity, fire is nerve. That's why my mind turned to gambling games.
[Steve ] Gotcha! :-)
[Mark] Re: alien games, when Riki and I (playing Julian and Corwin respectively) worked this out for SWtE, we settled on a game out of Steven Brust's Dragaera books: S'yang Stones. Not much detail is given about it except that it involves tossing stones onto a table marked out in squares and it's better to have round stones than flat ones. It takes luck and skill as well as strategy. The wine flew, we thought, when Corwin leaned back with that smug smile of his that makes you want to hit him with a shovel and said something like, "I've forgotten more than you've learned about this game."
Food for thought, a plausible example. If you two really think it ought to be horseshoes, I'll hear you out. :-)
[Steve] No, it's a plausible game and I'm happy to go along with it or something like it. :-)
[Mark] For this reason I see Corwin as a card player to rival Caine. :-)
[Steve] Er...isn't Random the card player?
[Mark] Cards are the one thing Random never cheats at, he's just naturally lucky. As I see it, Caine cheats, and something like half the time Corwin can catch him at it. Those two are a close 2-3 to Random's #1. :-)
But I can't think of a card game that would have been Dad's favorite game. I could probably think of something if I wasn't critically short on sleep...... More when I've collected my thoughts further.
[Steve] For some reason, I just can't see Julian as a card player, unless it's a team game like bridge. There are plenty of boardgames to choose from, though: chess must be out as I suspect it's almost entirely air driven but there's Go, Mah-jong, Othello - and possibly it's a game peculiar to Amber, in which case all we need to do is find a suitably mysterious name and vague description of how it looks. :-)
[Leslie] Unfortunately guys -- I sooo suck at strat-tac games that I haven't played any since Roleplaying was invented. I'd like to get something more intellectual than physical and if we could come up with a card game -- that'd make a lot of sense to me. As a deck of cards *is* something you can pack easily while on a trail or a weeks-long scouting expedition.
Certainly not any variant of poker. And all the other games I know about seem... hey, my Hornblower strikes! What is Whist all about anyway?
[Steve] While we're kind of on the subject, Fiona's comments about Julian's relationship with Caine also leave us floundering a little, IMO. What would Julian have told us about him? Were they really as close as they appeared? If so, why? And if they were, how do we square whatever Julian may have said to his kids with Corwin's dictum about never trusting family? Is it likely that Julian told his children different things? Has his expressed opinion changed over time?
[Leslie] Lessee, if I remember the comments correctly it was that Julian had gradually grown into a friendship with Caine. Starting slowly while Oberon was still King and getting firmer under Eric's regency. Is that correct? I am still new enough at this stuff to totally blow cannon out of the water if I'm not checked. :)
[Steve] You are basically correct on everything except how to spell 'canon' [the one with two 'n's really does blow things out of the water. :-)] Having just read through Fiona's vitriolic vilification of Julian, Corwin simply says that their friendship happened while he was away but that covers a considerable bit of time, centuries in fact.
Corwin's refutation rings true to me; Caine is anything but stupid. We also know that Fiona was dissing Julian to move the light from herself. Ergo, I think their friendship was real, but what of this would come through to Julian's kids?
[Leslie] Caine's sure a bit of a cipher, but I kinda think that he was almost always acting in Amber's interest. Just not using entirely 'honorable' means. I think every realistic kingdom needs someone like that -- the spymaster, the blade in the night for the Throne, etc. etc. Since not all of one's enemies are going to be honorable, it pays to have someone on your team who isn't either. And it might have taken Julian a little while to realize that Caine wasn't 'power-grabbing' but 'power-protecting.' Perhaps once Julian finally twigged, the two of them could find some common ground. Build a respect, that grew into a rapport, and finally into a tight team with Gerard.
[Steve] I'm not sure about Gerard. The evidence for is that Caine and Gerard were both Admirals and that Gerard and Julian both scouted the Black Road together. However, the latter IMO merely reflects the lack of manpower available to Eric - he has only got 3 brothers to ask and only 3 ways to pick a pair from them. Neither can I see much co-operation between Caine and Gerard as Admirals. They cover separate areas with separate fleets and it doesn't look as if they converse enough to warn each other of Corwin's nefarious diplomacy.
[Leslie] (Re: Caine-Julian-Gerard) I tend to think that there was other manpower available -- Random, Benedict (tricky but possible), Deirdre, Llewella (again, tricky but not impossible). These were people that Eric did not choose to recruit or sweet-talk. (Or wasn't successful in recruiting or sweet-talking.) Whereas Caine, Julian and Gerard were 'recruitable.' I think it was those three (plus the reluctant Flora) for a reason.
[Steve] Benedict states quite explicitly that he's no time for the Erician faction's powerplays and apparently gets involved only just in time for the Battle of Kolvir.
Random is still under house arrest for the attempted assassination of King Eric [astonishing leniency, IMO, one of the Erician cabal must be fond of the guy]. If Eric shares Corwin's ingrained sexism, I can see why he doesn't turn to his sisters, which just leaves his three brothers.
[Leslie] <laughing> I meant *before* the shit hit the fan, when Eric was first picking his team to stand against the red-heads. Yeah sure, after that point he's limited in his options -- but why did he start out with those three?
[Steve] I thought we were discussing why he picked Gerard and Julian to recce the Black Road? But if we're going that far back, Eric didn't so much pick his team, according to Julian, it was more a case of these guys deciding the redheads must be opposed and mutually deciding Eric should be the King.
There's also Eric's comment about Caine being a coward...
[Leslie] Eric also says that he despises Julian. :) I'm not really tempted to take any of these guys' word on one another. <laugh>
[Steve] My biggest caveat over that sequence is that it seems most unlike Eric to diss his 3 main supporters to his arch rival. I wonder if Eric's actual words were at least a little more diplomatic and Corwin's summarizing in his own words.
[Mark] Could be. It's hard to get past Corwin's baggage to the real Eric, but something about that contempt rings true. Maybe because by that time Julian's reported in about Corwin having gotten past him? Or maybe, being the fire-god, he really doesn't respect anyone with less brass than himself and has no use for anyone who won't fit in with his plans....
[Steve] I would limit intimacy to just Caine and Julian; Corwin describes them as 'alike'. Not quite sure what he means by this: reserved, loyal, bitchy, socially unpleasant, strong silent types, underhanded?
[Leslie] Hmmm... how about not a trilogy, but a pair of pairs? Caine and Julian get along. Julian and Gerard are brothers. But Caine and Gerard aren't necessarily buddy-buddy.
[Steve] That makes a lot of sense to me. If Eric *is* right about Caine's streak of cowardice, I can see that being a real obstacle for a 'real hero type' like Gerard, while I would expect Caine to similarly despise Gerard's lack of intellect.
[Mark] 'Coward' is probably another word for 'sneak' in Eric's lexicon - either he doesn't respect Caine's preference for misdirection over a stand-up fight, or he wants others to discount Caine as a threat in order to facilitate the misdirection.
[Steve] Certainly plausible. I'm also thinking of Caine's predilection for a knife in the back as opposed to a ftf duel. I can definitely see Eric despising an assassin.
[Leslie] I... can't really place my finger on why, but I've always kind of thought that Gerard and Julian got along together reasonably well. If not overtly allied, then at least simpatico.
[Steve] It might be so, unfortunately there's no evidence in canon that I'm aware of - aside that Gerard is "the only decent one among us" and our character sketch of Julian makes him very family oriented, Gerard being his full brother.
[Mark] I'm inclined to agree with Leslie just because there's no evidence against it either - and generally the animosities are pretty well out in the open.
[Steve] I think we're all agreed on this bit, then. :-)
[Leslie] As far as warnings -- while I don't know about the *boooyss* <grin> but I think it's been established in game canon that Robin got a *huge* dose of 'Don't trust Oberon's kids. Don't even let 'em know you exist.' from Julian. While not specifically stated by the GMs, I always kind of figured that meant *all* of them. Caine, Fiona, Gerard... all of them. In fact -- I could be wrong about this -- but I think that prior to the Patternfall War, the only Aunt or Uncle that Robin ever even saw was Gerard, and that at a distance.
I don't know whether Julian's admonishments to Robin were because of the nature of Robin herself. Or because of his feelings about this family. Could go either way.
And there weren't that many cousins pre-Patternfall War to hang out with either, so that even if Julian's prohibition didn't extend to cousins, there wasn't any of them to 'trust' anyway.
[Steve] I've had nothing from the GMs on this at all. I've not written such warnings into Daeon and in any case he's more inclined to make up his own mind - and may not be consistent between personas, just as I expect several PCs will vastly prefer certain of his personas to others.
All of which I think means I'm still floundering. How about you, Mark?
[Leslie] Whhhiiicch remind me. Mark? The awesome and all-knowing GMs have stated that Robin and Jovian have met once. Did you want to work on that background incident with me? Or just wing it <snicker> in game play once the two meet again?
[Steve] Mark and I still haven't discussed exactly where and how Daeon and Jovian met, and it was a bit of a surprise to me to discover they had. I'm reasonably sure Daeon has never met Robin, though he is now pretty sure he has a sister of that name.
[Leslie] (Re: Warnings) I'm willing to go along with a consensus. BTW, that is how I have this discussion archived on my hard-drive 'The Consensual Julian'. :)
[Steve] We seem to have a fair consensus on how Julian is and moving rapidly toward consensus on what he may have told us about Corwin and what the game was they were playing. Julian's relationship with Caine and what he tells us about it still seems a little grey to me. What do you think?
[Leslie] Did you mean Julian's relationship with Caine? I thought we were good to go on that one. Or did you mean with Gerard?
[Steve] No I meant with Caine. The reason I brought up this subject is that IMO Julian's relationship with Caine represents a conundrum for us as players. Caine is generally viewed as the sneakiest and nastiest of the elders but we are specifically told that Julian and he had grown close in recent years. Fiona reckons he's faking it but we've agreed it was probably genuine.
Now if Julian is someone with genuine feeling for his brothers, what would he have told his children about them? Apparently, to Robin, he gave the traditional advice a la Corwin but I've not yet worked out nor been told what he said to Daeon. Obviously, I can't speak for Jovian but I get the feeling he hasn't spoken to Jovian much about it.
[Mark] As I hinted at in play, Jovian hasn't met any of that lot, but he has reviewed them, fanned out as the proverbial hand of cards. Probably enough of an overview to know what to look out for. Probably something like 'you'll meet them when the time is right,' which of course makes someone like Jovian wonder why the hell the time should be wrong now...concluding certainly that there's some sort of trouble among them, perhaps that meeting them too soon would be dangerous.
[Steve] Has Julian spoken openly to Daeon about his uncles? Was what he said complimentary? Has he said, at one time or another, 'Caine thinks like I do' or 'I can understand Caine better than any of the others'. I have already assumed he's said respectful things of Benedict and, thanks to our discussion, I think I can see what he may have said about Corwin and Gerard.
[Mark] I could see him saying of Caine something like: "His motives are good, but not his methods. I trust him when I have to."
[Leslie] As far as what Julian may have told Jovian and Daeon about those two (Gerard and Caine) -- I don't know if I'll be any help. Like I said, it's already been established that what Julian told Robin was 'Stay away. Bad news.'
What you might want to think about, Steve, is did Julian tell that to all of his kids? Or just to Robin?
[Steve] Well exactly! *If* he gave different advice to Robin than to Daeon or Jovian, we have to ask why. I think it was almost certainly the gender difference, which has been established to a certain extent with Dione. What do the two of you think?
[Mark] Probably a major element, yes - I think there's also something to do with age and youth's perceived vulnerability. I'd suppose Daeon got more complete information as time wore on as well.
[Leslie] Yep, I really get the feeling that Robin was his 'little princess' (as much as anyone dressed in leather swinging a sword can be :) And, as such, got a lot of that type of advice from Julian. Neither myself or Robin really know what was going on with Dione.
[Steve] Dione was also very much his 'little princess', as you can read on my quiz for Daeon. This would fit perfectly.
[Leslie] I did finally get around to reading Daeon's quiz. Nice work, Steve. :) I was thinking though that I should rephrase the 'little princess' as Robin isn't a child... more like a willful adolescent. But still, the 'princess' part is definitely there. <laugh>
[Steve] I've also read some [not all] of the stuff you've put up about Robin - I'm going to look forward to her and Daeon meeting. :-)
[Do the Juliani know of dad's revised opinion of Corwin?]
[GM] Mark and Steve: How much time did your PCs spend with Julian in the last 5 Amber years? If the answer is 'none', then you may well have a 'pre-return' picture of Amber and Corwin, modified by discussions and news in the last 36 (relative) hours.
[Steve] Good point! Daeon's contact was good up until Julian comes to warn him about the Black Road, then there's a break of a few years until Daeon comes to fight for the war. Corwin's come back by this time so I see Daeon's perception of Corwin going from initial hatred at the time of Daeon's birth, mellowing after Corwin's death over a few centuries, then a sudden spike of angst, possibly seeing Corwin as a fool who needs protection from his own blunderings. Daeon does know of the blinding but probably has not heard of his father's final reconciliation. Does that all make sense?
[Mark] Julian and Jovian may have had two or three brief visits in the past few years - when Julian could be spared, of course. In Calusa, as Jovian's schedule has been pretty rigid and he'd have to fit such visits in between times (but not *between* times; Dad really doesn't like that). So, while Jovian could well be aware of the major events before Julian showed up looking for a ready-made air force, the *personal* perspectives would be a little thin.
[GM] Leslie, there's some stuff in Robin's backstory that might have bearing on this.
[Leslie] There is?!? <comes the sound of paper being furiously shuffled> shuffle, shuffle -- 'traitor-Princes Corwin and Bleys' -- shuffle, shuffle --'Eric's disdain for Julian... palpable' -- shuffle -- 'failed assassin and quodam prisoner, Random' -- shuffle -- 'Caine was killed, possibly in vengeance for his opposition to Corwin' -- shuffle
That's about all I think of, Michael. All the rest seemed kind of 'smoke and mirrors.' But in the smoke and mirrors section was this --
"I am, of course, unofficially in Eric's ill graces. I have had to make certain... concessions. However, I owe Corwin that much, for not killing me. I want you to attend the coronation dinner tonight. You should see exactly what we are defending -- what we have fought for."
(A few moments later)
"It's not as if we won here, you know. We've defeated an army -- any of my brothers could have raised it, or bested it -- and we've captured Corwin, who was considered dead until three months ago.
"What we have done is given Eric the excuse he needed to crown himself as Amber's savior and protector. Whatever we say in public, the truth is that Eric was not crowned reluctantly by the will of the people. Eric got what he wanted, no more, no less. Eric has won."
He smiles, grimly. "Fortunately, Eric's victory does not mean that Arden and Amber have lost."
Robin left shortly after that.
Is that what you were thinking about Michael, or am I missing something?
[GM] As to the "Corwin beat him at his favorite game and he lost his cool over it", we need to consider how and when and from whom you heard the tale. It might never come up or it might be a lesson passed from father to child about the need to be ever vigilant about you own personal legendary reserve...
[Leslie] I kind of figured that Robin hadn't heard of the particular incident. I just don't think that Julian would mention it to her. And the other Rangers probably either didn't a) know about it or b) feel it was their place to talk about it.
All I'm doing is voting for what Dad's favorite game is. All that Corwin stuff is for the politicos. :) Robin's got a *very* early return viewpoint on the whole thing.
[Steve] It comes over as occurring in a family setting. It's possible that servants carried word into Amber and Daeon heard it there but I think the most likely source can only be Julian himself. If you reckon he wouldn't bring it up with his kids, then we probably don't know about it.
But, of course, we might still know how much he likes the game and he's almost certainly taught us all to play it. :-)
[Leslie] Steve? I'm sorry, hon. I *know* I'm forgetting some of your questions. Would you mind terribly dumbing down the presentation for me? Maybe a bulleted list or something? <laugh> My 'Consensual Julian' document is now 16 pages long and I'm really having trouble keeping up with you. :)
[Steve] Right, to summarize - we seems to have a *very* good consensus on Julian's personality and what his children know of *him*. [Except the point of whether Julian has a paranoiac streak.]
So we better come to an agreement - I noticed paranoia was mentioned in Leslie's Robin site; have my arguments pursuaded either or both of you that Julian is, to an extent, paranoid?
[Steve] J's relationship with Oberon - was Oberon contacting Julian the reason for Julian's thawing towards Corwin? Are we agreed on this? Do we put it to the GMs?
[Leslie] If the GMs say yea, I think it's a go. :)
[Steve] OK, GMs?
[GMs] Rule number one: Every Elder has more than one reason for doing anything s/he does.
Rule number two: Every Elder has one more reason than you currently know for doing everything s/he does.
This GM thinks you all can build a better story if this change is internally driven rather than external. Also, given Julian's *emotional* reaction to seeing the funeral wagon, I prefer it if he hasn't had a huge closing scene with his father. Makes it hurt more, but hey, he's an NPC...
So, not yes, not no. Keep working, trying a new angle if it suits you all...
[Steve] So that's not a 'no'? Sounds like a no to me - I don't mind you saying no but if it isn't I'm confused - for my part I wasn't postulating an offstage 'closing scene', just Oberon contacting Julian to say 'I'm back, Corwin's OK' - but if that doesn't fit with GM story, I've no problem with that.
So we're left with Julian having his own private reasons for the shift, among which may be his relationship with his kids plus other motivations his kids can know nothing of?
Well we wouldn't know either way so IMO there's nothing more to discuss. Go for it, Leslie. :-)
[Steve] We also seem pretty much agreed on Julian's relationships with his siblings. What we still haven't quite agreed on is what he's told us about our uncles but for this we seem to have agreed to differ, Julian viewing girls and boys as separate species. :-)
I honestly expect the vast majority of that document will not be suitable for posting as it will reflect our personal knowledge of what Julian's told us. What we need to concentrate on now are those few elements which would be public knowledge. The foremost point is Julian's favorite game: are we agreed to go with Mark's "S'yang Stones"?
[Leslie] I think that's a go too.
[Steve] We'll go with that, then - Mark, only when you can spare the time, can you give a brief description of the game?
[Steve] If you like, send me the document and I'll run through it with a blue pencil. :-)
[Leslie] That's a very sweet offer, Steve. And I truly appreciate it. But I'd kind of like to hang on to it as it is. There's something wonderful about the synchronous energy of a conversation that's really cooking. But if you like I can edit out the 'wolfy' bits before I post it to my site. :)
[Steve] 'wolfy' bits? You Americans speak a language all your own. :-) No problem, I'll look forward to seeing it on the website once the last points are covered. :-)
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